Elbo

Hey thanks, yes that setup creates a midi feedback loop. The most noticeable problem it creates is it makes filter frequency 'step' instead of sound smooth when you move the fader but if you read some of the comments above yours you'll see there are other problems caused by it.

I could have implemented a switch to disconnect midi in from midi out for each parameter but the reason I didn't is because the purpose of this device is to avoid using the little faders of the Nymphes and be able to access, automate and see all parameters at once, not really to read input from the Nymphes.

Since this has come up a number of times I might just bite the bullet and try and add in the switch when I have some time. No guarantees as to when that might be though!

Yeah it can be an annoying thing to deal with for sure. I have another device where you can turn on and off incoming Midi CC because it output automation that people may or may not want to record. I didn't bother adding it to the Nymphes CC controller because I figured that if you're using the CC controller it's probably because you don't want to use the faders on the Nymphes anyway.

Ah that's disappointing. Maybe Dreadbox support would be able to help you troubleshoot then. It could be a common issue with a simple fix. Although if you can confirm that your unit is indeed defective then I see no reason why you couldn't ask your distributor for a repair or replacement if it's still under warranty.

In the meantime maybe see if you can test the program change functionality without using the M4L device. In Live you can send program change messages by setting them in the launch section of a MIDI clip, if you get the same no sound behaviour you know the issue isn't with the device but with program changes in general.

Hi Mark, no problem at all, that's great to hear! I hope it helps you make great music.

Hi Mark, it definitely does what you want it to do, I've tested everything here again to confirm and I'm switching between presets from the M4L and from Nymphes and it's updating correctly. Also dials are updating when moving a fader on the Nymphes as expected so I think the problem must be something on your end. My Nymphes is on firmware v2.1 and my live version is also 11.2.10. I'm also using Windows but not sure that matters in this case.

Are you certain you made sure you enabled both MIDI CC in and out and both Program Change in and out on the Nymphes after each firmware update?

The only other thing I can think of is a factory reset then update to 2.1 straight away in case there's some lingering setting that's stuck somewhere.

If nothing works still then maybe reach out to Dreadbox and see if they can give you some troubleshooting steps to take that we haven't thought of here. There's always the chance that there's an issue with your unit or a setting that's easily overlooked.

Let us know if you manage to sort it anyway.

Hi Mark, there's a few things you can check:

1. 'Track' is turned on for Nymphes in Live's MIDI preferences.
2. Nymphes is using v2 firmware.
3. The M4L device is insert on a MIDI channel that is armed and is accepting MIDI either from the Nymphes or 'All Ins'.
4. The CC data is only transmitted from Nymphes when you load the patch but you should be able to move an individual fader and see a response in Live.
5. Is Nymphes set to send MIDI CC out? You have to turn it on in the settings menu so refer to the manual for how to do that.

Hi Mark, yes absolutely, just set the MIDI track to accept MIDI In from the Nymphes. When you change a single value or a whole patch on the Nymphes it sends out all of its parameter information and the M4L device will update accordingly. Then you can simply save it as a Live device preset. You do need to use the USB port to send MIDI data out since the Nymphes only has a MIDI In port.

For what it's worth, I just downloaded a fresh copy of SSmooker's version to double-check and it seems that the live.arrows objects do still have parameter mode enabled. But if you don't need the arrows then absolutely get rid of them, that flexibility is one of the great things about Max patches. Glad I could help anyway and thanks for pointing out the bug.

Hi Oddeo. I'm not exactly sure why but the live.arrows object would increment the program change whenever the device is loaded. The workaround I found was to simply disable parameter mode in the inspector for the live.arrows object. It should be easy enough for you to change that yourself in SSmooker's TR-8S version, although you might ask them if they would make the fix too. I updated this device already.

As for the live.banks thing I'm afraid I can't really help you there, mainly because I don't have a push to experiment and test. I did notice that an object's "long name" is the one that shows up in the parameter slots in a bank and that it would only show up in the live.banks list when I saved and reopened the patch, if that's any help to you. If you still don't have any luck maybe ask on the cycling 76 forums or possibly Reddit too.

Thank you, I'm glad you like it!

Wow I'm surprised that was it, maybe I was using a max object that was only introduced after that version or something? Doesn't matter really, just happy it's solved now :)

Ahhh I knew something weird was going on.

Maybe you're right and the Max version is the problem but the issue seems to be that the CHORD dial in your version doesn't snap between the 8 values but behaves more like a dial with 0-127 values - that would be a very strange thing for them to change between versions. Not impossible but to me it seems unlikely.

I tested with Max version 8.1.11 on Ableton 10.1.42 on my system and the dial snaps and works properly just like expected.

Is it possible you somehow made a change to your copy of the plugin while looking inside and saved it without realising? If so then maybe you could just re-download a copy from here and test that to confirm?

Hey GilJ, no problem and thanks for explaining again. I'm still not seeing the same behaviour with the CHORD dial that you are describing.

The CHORD parameter has 7 different chords plus the off position (0), which makes 8 possible values that the dial can be set to in the plugin (0-7). When moving the dial it should 'snap' to one of those 8 integer values in a similar way to the wave knobs on the LFOs; essentially it already should do what you are suggesting. It should not be possible to move the dial a bit after 1 without the dial snapping to the next value, which is 2 in this case.

I recorded a quick test video with the steps you described. Can you watch it and tell me if the behaviour is different for you? From my point of view it's working correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QhQhBr3MtM

If I'm still missing your point maybe you could also upload a video that shows what you mean?

Hey, sorry I'm not sure what you mean, the chord knob is locked to the values 0-7 just like the LFO WAVE knobs are locked to the waveshapes, is there some kind of latency happening from when you turn the knob until you hear the chord change? Maybe you could explain again?

As for the sysex dump request I wasn't able to get the Nymphes to respond to the message so I'll have to see if I can figure it out. You can use the Bome sendSX app you used for updating the firmware to receive a Sysex dump from the Nymphes and save that output in a text file if you want to keep backups of everything, it's really handy!

Hey GilJ thanks for the heads up on the new firmware, I just updated my Nymphes and tested changing the presets from the M4L device and like magic all the dials updated without me having to change anything :) I have a feeling we have Orfeas from Dreadbox to thank for adding it to this update so cheers to him!

@bradburo
Yeah it's a pain in the ass to find your way to the correct menu, there is essentially no visual feedback other than a couple of LEDs blinking at different frequencies. Still, once you figure it out it can be quick enough to make change, just have to make sure you have the manual open nearby X-(

@fotobram
The exact same thing is happening to me but it's not just happening when sending program changes from my M4L device, it also happens if you send changes from the MIDI clip in Ableton itself. Basically only preset slots 1-49 respond to program changes (the factory ones) and 50-98 don't respond at all. I'm nearly certain it worked in firmware V1. I think there might be a MIDI message that needs to be sent for it to switch to the user bank. I emailed Dreadbox to see if there's a solution so I'll post an update here when I hear back from them.

Ok computer fixed and now the M4L device is fixed, phew.

Wow thanks for the shoutout :) Your music is awesome. It's weird, I know these devices are for making music but actually seeing the results, to have evidence that I helped someone make music in some way, it's a cool feeling.

Also gotta get me a Hydrasynth one of these days.

Hey no prob thanks for finding bugs for me :) That is strange, if I had to guess I'd say the input for those dials isn't scaled correctly, they could be only sending values 0-4 instead of 0-127. It might have been changed with the new firmware or I might have just missed it the first time around. Unfortunately my computer broke last week so I can't fix the bug until it's repaired. Hopefully it will only be a few days but if it's going to be longer I'll leave another comment and let you know.

I read that too but yeah I agree it won't work in this case, it only transmits the CCs when you hit the LOAD button. From what I've noticed, if you change the preset via MIDI, say to preset B6, you would still have to navigate to that preset on the Nymphes in order to load it to transmit the CC values. Maybe it's just easier to ask Dreadbox to add CC transmit on preset change from MIDI for firmware v3!

Hey yeah when you change the patch using program change over MIDI the Nymphes doesn't send back the parameters like it does when you physically load the patch on it. If it doesn't transmit its state, the M4L can't update its parameters to match. Not sure if there's a workaround, is there a send all CC values function on the Nymphes?
Yeah I realised too late about the typo and it didn't seem worth reuploading just for that :)

No prob. I'm still looking in to the sysex stuff so I'll keep an eye out for any global parameters.

@GilJ Aftertouch dial now responds to incoming mono and poly aftertouch, just enable it by clicking the little button beside the dial.

@bradburo
Yeah if you have the MIDI channel set to the Nymphes it will change the parameters on preset change. You need to press Load on the Nymphes for it to send the preset data over MIDI, in the old firmware it would send the cc values as you changed the presets but now it waits until you hit the button.

On that note I just realised that I forgot to change the mod values because right now they aren't listening to the preset change CCs. Stand by for v6!

Yeah it was weird, they only mentioned the new panic CCs in the firmware notes but luckily I saw them and put them in.

@GilJ
Thanks glad you like it!
The AT knob is kind of a hack, it sends out aftertouch but I made it so it would be more like another mod wheel. I'll see if I can make it respond to incoming MIDI but if it behaves weird I won't add it in. Especially now that aftertouch is polyphonic.
I'm not sure if those Global settings you mentioned have CC values, if they do and you know what they are then leave a comment and I'll add them in no problem.

Hi Misha. I have a new version that works with Firmware v2 pretty much ready I just need to test it a little bit first so check back in a day or two.

The preset stuff uses sysex and M4L is able to handle sysex messgages but I'm not very familiar with it so it probably won't be added anytime soon. I'll have a look into it and see what I can do. It would be nice to have for sure.

Yes LFO2 can modulate its own parameters which is weird and cool. LFO1 can't because its destinations are fixed to the LPF and the Oscillators.

Yes you're correct, if the Nymphes has some parameter settings in a certain position and the M4L device has different settings for those parameters, when you hit "Send Values" those values will be overwritten by the settings in the M4L device. I can't make the Nymphes send its current state so the only way I can think of is to move each parameter on the Nymphes very slightly to send its value to the M4L device.

You're right again, the mod values aren't being saved as Live Device Presets when you hit save, I'm looking into why it is happening so I'll hopefully be able to upload a version with a fix soon!

I got the idea for capture and recall from the Elektron Model:Cycles, it has that feature which is great for live jamming. It's easy to do in Max so I figured why not?

Hey braduro thanks I'm glad you like it, I just released a new version if you want to check it out.

The Zero All Mod Values button wasn't working properly so not your fault, I thought I fixed it in the last version so thanks for pointing that out. The problem was that it was sending messages out too quickly for the Nymphes to react in time so I added a 50 ms delay for each mod source. This also affected the Initialise button since they were using the same set of objects to set the mod values to 0.

You mentioning the Mod Wheel made me realise I could probably do the same thing with Aftertouch so I added a dial for that and you can use it in the same way!

The preset menu on my device only sends and receives Program Change messages so it's not able to send read and write messages but as far as I know it is possible. Dreadbox said their upcoming editor will have patch library functionality. I think the first 49 patches are factory only so they can't be overwritten, only the 49 user patch slots can be overwritten.
I'm not exactly sure how all that works to be totally honest. There's a guy I saw on YouTube who is making a CC controller that does have the ability to read and write .nym patches. You can check out his video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKVnH8RiJ9I although I'm not sure if it will be free when it's released.

@Muddy I added randomisers to all of the parameters but it really didn't work very well when I tested it. I'd almost always end up with a useless patch so I didn't add them in the end. Sorry about that. Maybe try adding some yourself if you're still curious but I think you'll come to the same conclusion.

Yes it's definitely possible, I did it on my previous device for the Roland TR-6S. I won't add anything new until I have the Nymphes to test but I'll have a look at adding some randomizer stuff next week when I do. Might be a cool way to find interesting patches.

There's no mention in the manual of the reverb parameters being mod destinations, only CC numbers for controlling it (CC 44, 45, 46 & 47). Loopop seems to confirm that it isn't possible in his review video here https://youtu.be/ra-QKtuTC68?t=600 but I will check myself when my unit arrives.

Looks like I'm in good company then! A lot of people were unsure about the menu system on the Nymphes and I admit I had my reservations until I heard that it would have extensive CC control. Cant' wait to get my hands on mine.

Oh interesting, yeah you could clear all the pattern and motion data and just use the pattern slots to store the kits, good idea. Sequencing is much better from Ableton anyway and I suppose if you wanted to save a pattern on the device you could just get it to record the incoming MIDI from Ableton.

Also I found out that you can run the TR Editor software at the same time as the M4L device. It even updates the knobs and sliders if you move them on the device. It's good to have it open if you want to edit stuff like insert FX and pan during a sound design session.

Oh cool I didn't know that VST controller existed, I might get it myself because I've been interested in getting into the plugin side of things. It might also give me an idea of how to pull the state from the TR, if it's possible to do in M4L I'll have a look at implementing it.

Anyway glad you like my device and I hope you find it useful in your productions :)

OK great thanks for testing it! Yeah it's a shame, I'm not sure why they decided to give the kit its own channel, maybe it could have been just a MIDI CC event on the main channel but there's probably some reason it has to be a program change event, possibly to with the MIDI standard itself.

I was actually shocked that the new editor wasn't also a plugin, initially I thought I was out of the job :) But it's not even MIDI mappable as a stand-alone application?! Very strange. I had thought that maybe it was impossible but then I remembered that Elektron have Overbridge as VST and AU options so either Roland just didn't want to bother or maybe the way the TRs were designed makes them too difficult to try and control via a DAW? I really have no idea tbh, just one of life's great mysteries.

Hey Stakk3r! I'm glad you like the device, thanks for your comment :)

So what I meant was if you try and use the Kit Change button while using the Ext. Instrument it will change the pattern instead of just the Kit. However changing the pattern will also change the kit because patterns have kits saved along with them too, if that makes sense. So I think that might be what's happening to you, maybe you could confirm for me?

While using the Ext Instrument test if the Program change selector has the same behaviour as the Kit change selector.
Then set the up device on a MIDI track without the Ext Instrument and see if the kit change selector only changes the kit and not the pattern too.

I'd be grateful if you could let me know.

Basically the pattern change and the kit change features both use program change events in order to change them over MIDI. The only difference is that they are on different MIDI channels. I had to make it quickly change the MIDI channel to the Kit channel, send the program change and quickly switch back to the pattern channel but this only works if you're using a MIDI track and not the External instrument. I'm using Live Object Model API to do this and unfortunately the Ext. Instrument doesn't allow you to change the MIDI output channel on the device via the LOM. Also the device overrides the MIDI To section of a MIDI track blocking the kit change feature from working so there wasn't really anything I could do to account for this problem.

BTW don't use more than one version of the device at a time, I tested this and it froze my TR-6S and I had to take the batteries out to reset it! You'd probably just need to cut the power to the TR-8S in this scenario since it doesn't have batteries but be careful anyway!

Hey maky357, I can't test this device since I don't have a TR-8S but I did try it with my TR-6S device.

Are you talking about adding the device to a MIDI effect rack? I added the device to one and can confirm it starts behaving strangely.

If I had to guess Ableton probably switches up how MIDI data is handled when using an MIDI effect rack. My device (and I'm sure this one) simply sends the MIDI and program change data out via the MIDI channel selected in the 'MIDI To' section of the track. It seems that using a MIDI effect rack changes or interrupts MIDI routing behind the scenes somehow.

I'll see if I can find a better answer for you after I do some research but unfortunately the best advice I can give you right now is to just not group the device into a rack.

Wow well done ssmooker, I would have done this myself one day if I ever got around to getting a TR-8S!

I've actually just pushed a large update for my TR-6S device if you want to have a look, maybe you can incorporate some of my changes into this one :)